Are you buried in treasures? Is your home overflowing with nick nacks, ‘just in case’ items and sentimental pieces you can’t seem to let go of? Join Bonnie and Lily as they chat with Lee Shuer and Bec Belofsky from Mutual Consulting about ‘Buried in Treasures’ and the launch of the ‘Oasis Club’. Find out how these virtual resources will help you take control of your stuff in a supportive environment with like-minded people.Sign up for our course: The Essentials Guide
Download our free Organising Cheat Sheet
EPISODE SHOW NOTES
- Mutual Support Consulting – register interest for the Oasis Club & Buried in Treasures virtual workshops
- Digital group therapy journal article
- Episode 8: Help! My Loved One is Hoarding with Lee Shuer & Bec Belofsky
- Episode 19: Hoarding Disorder with Dr Randy Frost
- Episode 27: Hoarding Disorder Q&A with Dr Randy Frost
Did you know we now have a YouTube Channel? We’d love you to check it out!
BONNIE: Hello and welcome! I am Bonnie,
LILY: and I am Lily, and this is Little Home Organised the podcast dedicated to helping you declutter, get organised and reclaim time for the things you love.
BONNIE: Hello and welcome! Today we will be joined by Lee Shuer and Bec Belofsky to talk about Buried in Treasures. We will chat about the reality of living life in a home overflowing with stuff, tips from a recovering finder, keeper and the resources available to help.
LILY: And we are also going to be introducing the very special ‘Oasis’ but more on that later. Firstly, let’s introduce Lee, Lee Shuer is an artist, violinist, writer and space invader in recovery. Lee co-authored the Buried in Treasures workshop facilitators guide with Dr Randy Frost and he has published the ‘Wrap for Reducing Clutter’ with Dr Mary Ellen Copeland. His interests include walks in the woods, petting cats, exploring the world with his wife Bec and asking people to stop using the word hoarder.
BONNIE: Now let me introduce Bec, Bec Belofsky co-founder of Mutual Support Consulting, is an international trainer, speaker and relationship facilitator, committing to supporting the emotional development and social connectedness of people of all backgrounds, ages and neuro diversities, Bec synthesises her learning from Smith College, life and travel abroad and her own mental health experiences to help people traverse the human condition. Welcome Lee & Bec!
LEE: Thank you.
BEC: Thank you so much, we are so excited to be with the 2 of you today.
LILY: It is so good to have you both back on the show, it was such a trill speaking back to you I can’t believe how quickly time has gone, several months ago and some amazing things have been happening in the meantime which we are going to dive into in today’s episode in your world especially Lee & Bec.
BONNIE: Now, before we get started, for those people who maybe didn’t hear our episode last year and maybe don’t know your story all that well can you just give us a brief rundown on how life has gone for you and how you have kind of come to this position of helping people become recovered space invaders
BEC: When Lee and I got together and were a new couple, we got to know each other and I felt very at home in his apartment and it was pretty heavily decorated, I will call it, there was lots of stuff around and I didn’t think twice about it really, except he was a busy guy with lots of great interests and eventually we got married and then we were moving into a new place because that apartment was shared with other housemates and I assumed much of the belongings there were represented by other people in the home and when we decided to move into our new little cute married apartment I said hey honey lets go, what are you taking with you from this apartment, and he said oh it’s all mine, it is all coming with us too.
BONNIE: First shock of the marriage
BEC: Woooh I said, certainly it cant all be yours, and certainly it can’t all be coming to our tiny new apartment and he said oh indeed my love it is. That’s the beginning in a nutshell and we did move and it was quite overwhelming and I will let Lee take it over a little from here.
LEE: Yeah so I guess it was definitely a matter of coming into a smaller place bringing everything with us and it didn’t all fit, I mean had things in a storage unit, I had things stored in a shed behind Becca’s boss’s house, my truck was full, we had a storage space in the basement of the apartment building, I had stuff at my folks place, I had stuff in the back yard, I just had stuff and that was sort of when it was at its peak. I think I had really started, I started acquiring collecting when I was a little kid, like at 3 years old I remember bringing home a big push mower that was like heavy, rusty, because I asked the neighbour if he had anything old he didn’t need and I guess I threw a bit enough fit that my folks let me bring it to our next house when we moved at age 3, and then it travelled with me for 40 years before I actually let it go and between acquiring it, getting married and letting it go you know my own recovery with this started in 2005 when Becca saw an ad in the company newsletter saying that there was a study, people who had too much stuff want to be enrolled in this to find out what attachment is all about and if it is something that we can challenge and make change. So given the situation and my need for help and her need for me to get it, I called the number and got enrolled in it and low and behold that study would lead to be one of the exercises in the Buried in Treasures workshop which I would start facilitating in 2009, so it really was just being in the right place at the right time with the right motivation and the right support to kind of come to this place where I could get the education to actually do anything about what I needed to do. So you know that is sort of how got here but just we had our own things to work through but we have sort of this idea that will help ourselves and then help other people
BONNIE: Just a question that I have about that, when you saw the number in the paper, was it Bec pushing you to call them, did you take a few weeks, a few months before you got up the courage, like I am imagining what is going through someone’s mind at that particular moment what was that like?
LEE: She handed me the phone and the number
BEC: Very straight forward
LEE: Yeah, yeah and I mean we are kind of magical thinkers and it is just sort of like okay I am going to open this and there is going to be a number and it is going to be life changing and there it is and so when she hands that to me I figured that is the magic meeting me halfway you know, but I knew, I knew I had to do something, it had to have been really hard for you especially to share, to ask that you know
BEC: It was also really interesting though because I had studied with Dr Randy Frost at Smith College so I knew that good help existed in the world and so when I saw that number and I said to Lee I have a feeling this is going to connect back to Randy and he is a great guy so I feel really good about this but also another factor who reads the company newsletter, who looks at that thing
BONNIE: It was meant to be
BEC: It felt like that, it had that kind of calling like ahh you know like something is opening up here and we need to take advantage of it.
LILY: And you absolutely did and isn’t it fascinating how a lot of us have those moments in life where we have an ahh ha moment where things just line up and you can tell that a path has been opened up to you and you just, you want to leap with both feet forward
BONNIE: Yeah, it just feels like the heavens have opened and the light is shinning down right on where you are and it is like go forth this is all going to work out just fine.
LILY: So I absolutely love your story guys because it is a story of success and I think when it comes to people who struggle with acquiring and letting go of stuff there is a lot of feelings, emotions, guilt, shame and you know in some cases defeat with trying and not succeeding but the thing that is so wonderful about your story is you have shown that yes it is a decision that you make everyday but it is possible and there is hope and I mean as you said yourself Lee you are now someone who does facilitating for these workshops and we definitely want to talk about that today for people who are looking for extra support and resources
BONNIE: Yes so please tell us about this Oasis Club which I know you have said as a type of group therapy but it is unlike anything you have ever seen before.
LEE: Yeah, so I would say it is almost like un-therapy I would say it is therapeutic, and you talk about chance, you know so the International OCD foundation has an annual conference and we are always involved and last year it was suppose to be in Seattle, Washington and that was the first hot spot for COVID in the US back in February last year and we saw that and we just kind of looked at each other and thought I guess we are not going to Seattle, I guess we are not going to that conference this year because it just felt like, this is a big thing and so for the first time they went virtual, like a lot of other people, and so we had our conference online and a feature every year is Becca runs a support group for family members of people with clutter and I run a peer support group, so we are in the peer support group and there was quite a few people and during the course of the conversation you know someone said like it is wrapping up soon and the person who was moderating said you can stay on for a little longer if you want, and I said I can’t I got to go but why don’t we get together again next week if you want I will set up a zoom call, so like party at my house everybody is invited and so I give them a password, I said listen if you want to do this the code word is oasis and so email me oasis and I will send you the zoom link and we will get back together. I said I am not promising this will go forever, a couple of weeks maybe but lets do this. So out of that now I have got like 23 people that want to get back together and I realise like this is that opportunity I have been waiting for because we have got people from all across the US, Canada, England amazingly all in one place and motivated to get support and be together and I said you know I have had this idea for a long time, maybe this is the time to do it, and it is based on this sort of approach of creating in a home that is just full, finding a spot and calling that the oasis and putting all of your effort to creating this one space, so everything you are doing and you are learning, you are implementing and you are practising it and you are making it real in that spot and that can grow. That was basically the first time I tried that in someone’s home, there was just so much, so much in there but I noticed that she had been telling me she is a reader and you know I could see a bookshelf and I said you know there is a chair there, there is a lamp next to it, there is a little table, what if we create out that spot so you could have a reading nook you know, and so that was like the first step and then once there was enough room I saw a folding screen and I said how about we just set this up along side your chair so that all you see is what we have cleared so far. So that was the next step so just like 3 feet wide from the chair to the wall across the way, and then every single time we worked on it we created a little more and a little more and a little more and eventually that corner little oasis became the whole living room and then the whole hallway and the other rooms and things like that and it all connected up.
BECCA: The oasis grew
LEE: The oasis grew to sanctuary, ultimately that is what it became right, so the idea being okay like so to create that but how right and that is where I have had this idea for psychic form, an approach of a short cycle of different skills and sort of attention to different parts of what makes the clutter and what helps make it go away starting with a week looking at aspirations, so like do I want to change, and then the next week about acquisition, and the next one about possession and then reflection. So you have got 4 themes and then they start over. So every 4 sessions you can have new people enrolling, every session is complete unto itself not serialised like if you are watching Twilight zone you can jump in the middle and it would still be cool. So, it is kind of like that, you don’t have to watch 5 seasons of Breaking Bad to get it, lets just do it. And so what we have been doing is I said to the group, I said this is the way it will kind of work, you give me all the things that you really want to talk about and I will put them into these different themes and so you will pick the topics and I will put them in the themes and then I will share a strategy to help work on that and so everything from mapping out a space and planning where that oasis will be to reflecting on shame and turning it into a keep or throw away, would I keep shame if it was a physical thing you know and just sort of having a different way to handle and manage and look at things, I don’t see the why in other groups, I see what and how and when but I don’t see why and that is the part that is different
LILY: I love that imagery if shame was physical would I keep it, would we keep it, would you keep it?
BONNIE: I mean I don’t want to but I probably do
LILY: That must be such beautiful imagery for people to hear
LEE: And it is sort of symbiotic thing where we were coming up with topics and they said something and the topic ended up being everything aspires to even flowers and other pretty things and we started to look at everything as if it was food and is it still good, like where is the expiration date, is it still nourishing, is it healthy, is it stale, do I even like this stuff, was it just on sale and then like is it even good anymore was the kind of thing and like wow you look around and it is like those flowers were really pretty for a long time but they have expired. Those things have expired; you know and just like conceptualising that way
LILY: They lived their life, they had their time we can appreciate it for where it was in the past but then we look at where we are now in the future and accept that it’s time has come to an end. We talk about that actually quite a lot with decluttering in general, is you, is this a part of my past, present or future but the imagery that you are evoking there it would really
BONNIE: Food is great, that’s awesome
LILY: It helps people of all different as you say Bec, like neuro-diversities try and comprehend and understand, because Lee I am sure you can attest to from your experience that when you look at stuff you might look at an object in one way, and Bec looks at that same object in a very different way
LEE: Totally, absolutely yes
BONNIE: So Lee with this trial group that you have just run last year, how long did it run for and what would you determine the success of the group, or the outcome of the group was?
LEE: Yeah, so I put out, so we started meeting I guess that was August and I put out a Doddle pole to everybody and literally half the people could said they could come on a Tuesday night and half said Sunday. So, I was like well alright so I will have2 groups and so I ran 2 groups 20 sessions of each, so that ended on this Tuesday. A couple of nights ago
BONNIE: Oh wow, okay
LEE: The 40th meeting and we were reflecting and that’s basically what is about that final session in the psycho in the song, it is called a rondo, it sends you back to the beginning and in rondo essentially the music changes but the song remains that same, so you are still setting small goals every week but the outcome changes and the reasons why change, it is still the same song but it sounds different, you live it differently, you experience it differently. So we are at this you know this meeting the other night and we were just kind of reflecting on what we have seen changed within ourselves, around ourselves, people are turning the camera and showing the room that they talked about wanting to transform a few months ago into a space and they are in it now and one of the coolest things someone being able to stand up for themselves and say look what I have done to a family member, I was only forcing them to look at what they hadn’t done. So that was like a beautiful thing the change inside, outside and then just the applicability for it to really be a household thing where imagine that Bec and I are in our cluttered home back in the day, what if she has got an opportunity to create her oasis and make mine and we make ours. So it would be like we would both have something to own and cherish and protect and also a place to play cards you know, something fun, you know so it is very organic they way it came to be and really beautiful. People have really seen a lot of change and yeah so I am really happy and this space in here is different, I designated this space as an oasis and look at what I had on the walls and it was like does that really reflect all of who I am you know and no, so I started to change it up, just when it was done, just when it was just how I liked it I thought okay now I can take it down, so but I wouldn’t have that impulse if it wasn’t for that conversation to think like well where am I at now.
BONNIE: That’s amazing
LILY: Such a great process
BONNIE: And I love that as being part of like the facilitator of that group, it also inspires you to make changes at home, that’s what I love the most about all types of group therapy and even working like one on one with clients, I get inspired after I have gone and decluttered with someone to come home and change things up for me as well, it is like this constant cycle or inspiring each other.
BEC: It is like their momentum builds my momentum, it is funny because I have been sitting here doodling an infinity symbol. You know how it goes around like that and that is kind of how the momentum between us and all of the people that we connect it, it flows back and forth.
LILY: Yes it like my energy gives you energy, gives you energy and you know we can all feed into each other in that way. As we were talking about group therapy it reminds me of this study that I recently had looked at, it was conducted in about 2007 and it basically showed that for people who left a form or inpatient treatment, when they left their inpatient treatment and then engaged in group therapy and this was actually in a virtual setting so they met together every week for about 90 minutes with a group therapist, there was about 10-12 people in the group, and they did this for about 10-12 weeks, their therapeutic outcomes were substantially higher than those who had no group therapy at all and so it shows that even in the world of COVID and in the world of everything being virtual now, yes face to face is brilliant but there are options out there for you that are really truly statistically going to be beneficial and it is a beautiful silver lining that as you said Lee, you have been able to engage with people not just in your local area but in people in other countries are all able to come together and of course the beauty as well is that they are in their homes and so as you say they get these moments of pride, whereas they work together each week, they can then say hey you know that room I have been talking about I can actually show you it and that must be so incredible.
BONNIE: Hey so I have just have to interrupt here, I have just taken a drink of my water bottle and I don’t know if you can see this down the bottom it says oasis
BEC: Oh wow, and it is beautiful too
BONNIE: There you go
LEE: I have an oasis coffee cup as well
BONNIE: Oh do you.
LEE: When we were in Australia, I really wanted a double mug with a built in French press and we went to a store and I am sitting here during a meeting when It is an oasis mug, so I also have an oasis mug yeah
BONNIE: See we are connected across the globe, it’s great.
LEE: I want to just reflect for a second on that idea of the back and forth and the give and take, because that was a huge factor in me really breaking through a wall and moving forward, I would say that for the first month of our oasis club sessions I was keeping up with the daily, the weekly small goals I was setting for myself and then I wasn’t, and week after week after week, after week, after week I was not completing the small goal. The specific small goal. I was doing hundreds of hours of work decluttering other things but not that thing and when it came down to we had like one cycle left, I said to everybody I was like anybody notice I haven’t like completed a goal like you are still like cheering me on, we are cheering each other one but I haven’t reached a goal, I am really committing myself for the next month and them seeing me rededicate myself because I had been watching them succeed it was just like zoom and then like everybody was meeting their small goals and the small goals were getting bigger and just like checking in with excitement and enthusiasm and a sense of like we got this you know but really like I would not have made that next step if it wasn’t for that, because I had something to prove to myself, I was like I don’t know I got to do this, so that, it is one of those things, it was the group, just like a slingshot helped me get through.
BONNIE: That is cool it is almost like the boomerang, I think we actually talked about that imagery last time even as well about it returning, that’s how it goes around and it is a bit like when you have got a flame and you pass it to another wick it doesn’t extinguish your flame it just multiplies it and that is what it is like, that is really cool.
LILY: So, I have to ask Oasis is a newer concept Lee and some people who are familiar with either both of you or Dr Randy Frost or those areas of work may have heard of the Buried in Treasures workshop but not heard of Oasis so how are the two of these different as far as resources go for people to access.
LEE: Yeah well I would say that Buried in Treasures is really like a systematic approach to understanding the underlying reasons why we are holding onto things, what specifically makes it difficult to let them go and then gaining skills to be able to organise them and keep them that way. So it is a really practical, cognitive behavioural therapy approach, all of the work we do is really above the surface in the group, so we don’t go under the surface, we don’t get like personal in the conversation we really just talk about the effect but not the cause, with the Oasis club we talk about the cause and then reflect on the effect and then apply something to it so it is like the hard skills and then the grey area skills I guess whatever that is that is what we have been doing for the last several months
LILY: So, what I am understanding is that it sounds like they are quite complimentary to each other,
LILY: You kind of need a bit of both to really be able to have some practical skills but also to really get down to the nitty gritty that you
BONNIE: The psychology of why
LILY: Yeah the psychology of why, that you may not be able to do in one of the workshops
LEE: Cause I am in both and I think it goes great, it really is really helpful because they kind of fill in gaps for each other, it is just more conversations to be a part of you know. Information
BONNIE: So for people who want to know more about the Oasis club and get access to your new and upcoming groups because you are now going to take this international which is super exciting
LEE: Yeah this is the big announcement
LEE: No one knows
BONNIE: Yes you heard it here first
LEE: 23 people like sworn to secrecy they are so patient with me, they are so patient, they signed these ridiculously long please don’t tell anybody, please cause it is such an important concept, but as I said to you the other night like everybody can share it now because what the heck would you have said about it, like back in the day because it was just this like concept of like I saw a YouTube video and they were playing heavy metal music on acoustic guitar and it was beautiful and they had this idea about moving parts and composition called cyclic form and now we are all here so what are you going to tell people anyway. It is nice to be able to show people and I have less clutter but like between points A and B there is this whole process and so coming to our website www.mutual-support.com that is really the hub so all of the things that we are doing, like this Podcast will have a link on our home page so they can find out about cool things that are going on, that you are doing, and you know to find out about what we are doing so we will post the things there so they can find us and they can find what we are doing there.
LILY: So, if they want to find about Oasis head to your website, we will have the link in the show notes for everybody to check out as well so that is for both Oasis and Buried in Treasures to?
BONNIE: So, lets switch gears a little bit cause poor Bec has been in the background a fair bit for this one so far. Now you have also been doing some really exciting things and during COVID a lot of businesses a lot of organisations and corporations realised that they we have got to change because we can’t meet in person anymore and they have gone virtual and that has been a really good sliver lining of COVID I think is a lot more people can work from home, we recognise how good online meeting can actually be when we are not allowed to meet face to face you have managed to take a very physical group therapy of Buried in Treasures and turned it virtual, so can you first of all tell us a little bit about what Buried in Treasures is and then how you were able to take it virtual.
BEC: Sure, Buried Treasures is not really group therapy, what it is, it is not a support group either, it is really a supportive action group is how I would state it and it is designed so that it can be pure lead. Clinicians don’t need to be involved, it is kind of a thing where it is evidence based so the power to the people is a format that really works in this system, it has been proven and that makes it much more assessable, we can spread it around, we can help people even normally clinician works one on one a lot of the time but we can see up to 10 people in one of these groups and as Lee was saying it is really adapted from cognitive behavioural therapy and what we are doing is looking at what gets people stuck in their information processing, like things like decision making or memory or attention or things like that can get in the way and other components or the emotional pieces, the sentimental attachment, the feelings of responsibility for things in the environment, things like that can get in the way so really the head and the heart of it comes together for people and combine with behaviour that causes clutter and so the group really addresses those different components and people are able to see what of their individual sticking points then, where have they gotten caught in keeping things or acquiring too much. So it is really eye opening and people have some great ah ha moments, wow, other people feel this way too, it is just amazing to see those lights turn on for people and I had my first experience with a zoom group from the international OCD foundation when I ran the support group for family members last year and I was worried about how that would go but we ended up with around 50 people on that call and I couldn’t believe the warmth that come through. I am a hugger; you have seen me at the conferences.
BONNIE: You give great hugs
BEC: I love to hug people, thank you so do you
BONNIE: Oh thank you
BEC: I love to be able to hug people and you know what at the end of this conversation we were out giving hugs you know cyber hugs to each other through the camera and at that point I though wow I think this is really going to work, and we have found that to be true in all of our chill groups that we are running, the connection of human spirit is so there and it might even be of better quality maybe because people are in their homes, they are in their natural environments, defences might be down a little bit
LILY: they are feeling safe
BEC: They feel safe and cosy you know and I think that is really helpful to and it allows us to reach people who maybe couldn’t leave their homes you know, people whose transportation was tricky who have various conditions physically that made it difficult to get out and about so it is just a full on thumbs up for how the virtual groups are going.
LILY: That’s such great news. It has become so much more assessable for people.
LILY: And one of the things I have thought about is you know we need more resources here in Australia for people who cannot leave their homes and so do you have any good news for us on that front.
BEC: Well we will be running our first design to be, Australia time
BEC: Buried treasures group
BONNIE: That will be awesome
BEC: We missed our Australian cousins so to speak over there, we miss you all so we are definitely going to be plotting some times that will make it accessible to you all in Australia.
LILY: That’s great
BONNIE: That’s awesome
BEC: So do get in touch and let us know what part of the country you are in so we will know your time zone, we can get things set up, distance is no matter anymore we have learnt
BONNIE: No its true and you know what Buried in Treasures work shops have been I don’t know around for however many years but in Brisbane in particular they are just not very often, like you could be lucky if you get one a year run by some organisation so for people to be able to access virtual Buried in Treasures workshops in their time zone
LILY: And access you
BONNIE: And access you guys
LILY: Because we know that you are fabulous
BONNIE: or your trainers
BEC & LEE: Thank you
BONNIE: I think you are going to be inundated
LILY: It is taking down some barriers and I think in a time where some people cannot leave the home you know be it for lockdowns or what have you it is keeping social connectiveness, which I remember from our episode with Dr Frost he was saying how important social connection and family connection is for people who are struggling with acquiring and letting go so
BONNIE: So true
BEC: Every week to look forward to seeing peoples bright smiling faces on the screen when we meet up and one thing I have got to say about the Buried in Treasures group you know we people say oh you guys are the success story… we see success stories all the time! I have to stress that it is heartening – I am always so moved because the number of people who want help and can’t get it is I think much larger than people who don’t want to make change, people just don’t know how and they don’t have access to services but we have people all the time who are making great strides and it is just, it is all inspiring and my heart, I just feel it like growing with everyone’s stories and growth, it is incredible.
BONNIE: It is amazing and you guys are a public success story but knowing that there are those other success stories out there and whatever that success looks like for each individual person it is so good to know that hey these groups actually really work, Buried in Treasures really works, this Oasis club, it really works it helps people and our motto here at Little Home Organised is progress not perfection.
BEC: We love it
BONNIE: Yeah it is just awesome that you guys are helping people find that momentum and progressing forward. It is amazing.
LILY: So, for people who are interesting especially for our Australian listeners as well and they want to enquire about Oasis, or they are interested in joining a virtual Buried in Treasures workshop, where do they go?
LEE: You go to the website and there is a link there, it is complete an application and then we will be in touch. So it is really detailed in terms of even right down to the technology you need to have to be in the group. All the moving parts from your own motivation to having a webcam. So it really helps people check the boxes and says is this the group for me. So by the time we are answering their request we are pretty sure they are a match and then we can say hi, so go right to the website mutual-support.com and click the button.
BEC: I would just like to mention that I have a feeling that people don’t know how much fun that we have getting together in these groups because you think about the subject, you think about how hard it is to work on it and you know that people are overwhelmed and it is hard but I have to say there is so much joy expressed in these groups that it is just such a wonder haven to be in
BONNIE: That is a really good point because people do get scared of you know decluttering or facing what they might feel are their demons but doing it in a supportive group
LILY: And having a bit of fun too
BONNIE: Yeah, and that is the key isn’t it, like not taking it so seriously and being able to have a laugh about stuff and yeah just being with people who are like minded is so valuable.
BEC: Their stuff isn’t bad we just might have too much of it.
BEC: And learning to value and use what we do have and giving ourselves permission to do that and make change
LILY: Oh what a beautiful note to end on.
BONNIE: So true
LILY: Thank you so much Lee and Bec for speaking with us again today I just feel like you know you filled my little heart with our time with some American, good quality American friends of ours, so thank you once again.
BEC: Thank you! It’s been great spending time with some of our favourite Aussies!
LEE: Thanks for having us.
We would love to see the conversation continue, head over to the Little Home Organised Community group on Facebook, ask questions, find motivation and share your before and afters, and if you enjoyed the show please help us going by hitting subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or where ever you listen. It is free and ensures you do not miss and episode but if you really want to share the love leave us a rating and review. Trust me it makes all the difference in the world.